Forgiveness
Q: Charles, I know we've already talked some
about the heart of man and his need for vengeance,
but why is man so unforgiving?
My crimes were hideous and terrifying. It's absolutely
right for a person to hate such offensive crimes.
But in order for us to forgive, we must learn
how to process our judgments in light of the grace
and mercy of God.
There are other atrocious crimes in the news.
We've heard how Andrea Yates drowned her children
due to post-partum depression. We've seen pictures
of those five precious children, and we grieve
with her husband. We sorrow with her mom and dad
and our sympathy goes out to them. Yet, in the
same news reports, we hear that Andrea is eligible
for the death penalty.
How can we justify taking another life? Our thoughts
would say, "We can't just give her mental
treatment and let her go free. She must pay for
killing her innocent children." To the contrary,
she can never pay for what she has done. It will
torment her for the rest of her life. It will
be hard for her to forgive herself. She needs
our mercy instead of rejection.
We don't forgive simply because our thoughts
are not God's thoughts concerning his mercy (Isaiah
55:8). His thoughts say, "…God showed
His great love for us by sending Christ to die
for us while we were still sinners" (Romans
5:8 NLT).
Justice and mercy met at the cross of Christ.
The judgment for Andrea's sin was placed upon
Christ. God hates her sin, but He loves Andrea.
The Apostle John says, "This is real love.
It is not that we loved God, but that He loved
us and sent His Son as a sacrifice to take away
our sins" (I John 4:10 NLT).
Q: Let's talk more about this vengeance in
the heart of man. Where does it come from?
Vengeance comes from the vindictive nature of
mankind. We were born with this nature. It's the
natural response of fallen man. This nature comes
from the kingdom of darkness. And just because
a person has been put in authority by the people
doesn't mean that God says vengeance is right.
We may call it justice, but on the contrary, the
Lord speaks of righteous judgment, which flows
from a heart of mercy.
On the cross of Calvary, Jesus Christ made it
possible to reverse man's vindictive nature. Jesus
came not to destroy life, but to save life. He
came to give us a divine nature, so love and mercy
could flow from our hearts. It takes being born
from above, or born-again, to have a heart of
sympathy not only for the victim, but also for
the offender. Forgiveness was given to us through
Jesus Christ, and only as we receive it, can we
give it.
We can be offended by the sin, yet love the sinner.
It helps to recognize the devil as the real enemy
of society, and as a nation, we need to kick him
off our airwaves and out of our homes. We are
to turn our anger loose on him, not the person
he is using. We can take back our streets, forcing
the enemy out of our lives, while showing mercy
to his victims. We have a common enemy, and Jesus
Christ has brought him to his knees. We are to
enforce his defeat daily.
Q: You're not blaming society and the devil
for your crime, are you?
Definitely not! I'm responsible for my crime
because of my wrong beliefs, thoughts, and shortcomings
- pride, lusts, rebellion, anger, and self-centeredness.
In my sin of unbelief toward God, the works of
my flesh were free to operate.
All these elements that shaped my mind are in
society, but each of us decides whether to take
on them or not. I was controlled by them; very
sinful desires were at work within me. As a result,
I released my pent-up anger in violence upon my
victims.
The devil was free to invade and manipulate my
life because of my deceitful, unbelieving heart.
We all have a common problem as a society. The
Bible calls him "…the Devil, your great
enemy who prowls around like a roaring lion looking
for some victim to devour" (I Peter 5:8 NLT).
"... Satan, the mighty prince of the power
of the air. He is the spirit at work in the hearts
of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used
to live that way, following the passions and desires
of our evil nature" (Ephesians 2:2,3 NLT).
The enemy is bound from our lives when we trust
in the grace of God and not our own strength.
We are powerless over the works of darkness without
faith in Christ's victory at the cross.
We choose whether or not to serve him. I chose
to serve him. He is the most malignantly-wicked
being and in spiritual darkness we take on his
persona. We are told to be careful, to watch out
for attacks from him, to take a firm stand against
him, and to be strong in our faith. He is a very
real enemy, but most are blinded to his attacks;
instead, we listen and play his games.
Our rock musicians worship him in heart, lyric
and dress while blaspheming the Lord Jesus Christ.
The hearts of children worship the musicians and
imitate their lifestyle. We drink his wine and
buy his goods, not even knowing that we are being
deceived by his sorcery. In time, this bridge
to Babylon will be judged by God, the righteous
Judge.
Q: Are you saying God will judge us for our
sins?
It's been said that if God doesn't judge us soon,
He is going to have to apologize to Sodom and
Gomorrah. But we are living in a period of grace
and mercy. God's mercy abounds. He sees mankind
as deserving death. His justice demands it. So
in His grace, He sent His only Son, Jesus Christ,
as payment for our sin; to take our judgment --
what was due us. We owed a debt that we could
not pay. God's payment demanded blood, our blood;
but God is now satisfied with the blood of His
Son.
It's so important for us as mankind to understand
how depraved we are in order to understand the
heart of an offender. We need to be able to identify
with the wicked-ness of the heart of man. Then,
we can understand how such horrible crimes happen.
God sees our desperately wicked heart. With a
heart of compassion and love for the world, He
gave His Son. Now we can be forgiven through believing
in and confessing Jesus' death, burial and resurrection
for us. Jesus has bridged the gap between us and
God by the cross of Calvary to create us in righteousness
and true holiness.
It's easy for me to understand this forgiveness.
The Scripture says he that has been forgiven much
loves much. That's me. I am able to identify with
the offender. I am in his position. I am an offender
-- but a forgiven offender. I understand how Jesus
paid a debt that I could not pay, and I rejoice
and praise God for His death in my place.
Q: How can a person possibly forgive such
a horrible crime?
Forgiveness flows from the heart of God. Without
truly knowing Him, it's impossible to forgive.
His voice is different from the voice of the world
system. His voice is not crying out for vengeance.
He sees His Son as having paid the price for sin.
He is full of grace and mercy.
Many of us really need to spend time with God
to get to know His heart and mind, instead of
lining up with the popular belief of the day.
We are constantly being bombarded with the latest
heinous crime, driving us to act upon our fears
and be overcome with grief. But as we keep our
mind on the Lord, He keeps us in peace so we are
able to act in love.
It takes time to heal, but it becomes possible
to forgive anything as we spend time in God's
Word and in His presence in prayer. We grow to
understand God's love for us, living out our faith
and caring for others. As a result, the love of
God will bring forth forgiveness. This is the
divine flow, where God does His best work in our
lives.
Q: It's quite a battle not to be vengeful
these days, isn't it?
There is a battle raging for dominance over our
minds. Eighty percent of Americans are pro-death
penalty. The religion of victimhood or vengeance
is spreading throughout the land. The odds are
against us as the mob rules.
In these last days, Jesus speaks of this battle
and the stand we'll have to take to choose Him.
He says that even family will be against us, but
we must let patience possess our soul. This stand
we're taking is not popular.
The Apostle Peter says, "…for you are
a chosen people. You are a kingdom of priests,
God's holy nation, His very own possession. This
is so you can show others the goodness of God,
for He called you out of the darkness into His
wonderful light" (I Peter 2:9 NLT). The Lord
has called us to show the sinner mercy. God's
vengeance will come later. Those who deserve death
will receive it. "For it is written, 'I will
take vengeance; I will repay those who deserve
it,' says the Lord" (Romans 12:19 NLT).
It's time to get back to the garden as we were
singing in the '60s. I guess we were singing about
the Garden of Eden. Who knows? But if so, this
time we need to choose life and not to eat of
that tree of death. This is where the vengeance
of man all began, when in his own wisdom he began
to choose good and evil instead of trusting God.
Q: What can we do as a country to solve this
problem?
We're not going to solve this dilemma solely
on a political level or in that arena. We hear
a loud voice of conserva-tive politics from our
pulpits today. We equate conservative theology
with conservative politics.
We need more than the mere external application
of the law, which will not solve our problems.
The law is good, but the law alone will not empower
us to be right with God and one another. Our righteousness
must be internal so love and loyalty can flow
forth from our lives. This exceeds what the strict
observation of the law can do.
Jesus didn't come to take over the political
system in order to bring healing, although his
disciples wanted Him to. In the Old Testament,
the land was never healed through political powers,
although they tried. The law could not make man
complete, so Jesus sent forth the Spirit of God
in order to bring His new way of doing things.
He came to set up the Kingdom of God in the hearts
of kings and to empower us to forgive. Our problem
is greater than politics, and must be solved from
the inside out. We have a heart problem that only
the authority of the true King of kings can cure
(Revelation 1:5,6 NLT).
This doesn't mean that Christians shouldn't participate
in politics. Our influence is much needed there
to ensure the morals of our land. Jesus said,
"…go and make disciples of all the nations…Teach
these new disciples to obey all the commands I
have given you" (Matthew 28:19,20 NLT).
Q: What specific actions can we take as Christians?
In II Chronicles 7:14, the Lord says, "If
my people, which are called by My name, shall
humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face,
and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear
from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will
heal their land."
It's the Holy Spirit that moves in the heart
of man and brings forth life to the world. God
sent the prophets in the Old Testament, but the
people did not listen. Today, God's Word is still
going forth to heal the land. This is our commission,
not politics and vengeance.
God's vengeance will come later, but He won't
take pleasure in judging the land. He desires
that all people be saved. He has shed His grace
on us, and it is time at last to hear His call.
We must humble ourselves to Him as He gives the
call, "Look! Here I stand at the door and
knock. If you hear me calling and open the door,
I will come in, and we will share a meal as friends"
(Revelation 3:20 NLT). Jesus desires to be friends
with each of us.
Q: Is this what happened to you, Charles?
He asked you to be his friend, and you took Him
up on it?
That's right, I was one of the worst sinners,
and my heart was full of sadness, pain and guilt.
He reached down and knocked on my door. He came
into my heart and we shared a meal together. All
I had to do was receive His forgiveness. He even
empowered me to forgive those who I felt had wronged
me.
Like King David, "I would have lost heart,
unless I had believed that I would see the goodness
of the Lord in the land of the living" (Psalm
27:13). The Lord revealed to me too, that "…if
I would believe, I would see the glory of God"
(John 11:40).
I had a lot of baggage that I brought to the
Lord. He gave me a hunger for His Word, which
has slowly renewed my mind to His way of thinking.
As a result, my emotional life and actions began
to take shape.
One of the many Scriptures written by the Apostle
Paul is very meaningful to me: "Get rid of
all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and
slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.
Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted,
forgiving one another, just as God through Christ
has forgiven you" (Ephesians 4:31,32 NLT).
God's counsel through these Scriptures tells me
that I must allow Him to deal with my heart before
I can forgive as He forgave me.
Q: Earlier, you mentioned the bridge to Babylon.
What does this have to do with forgiveness or
the lack of it?
Of course, Bridge to Babylon is one of the latest
Rolling Stones albums, and they have toured the
world with it. Babylon means confusion, so what
we're talking about is a bridge to confusion --
the kingdom of darkness. In the Bible, Babylon
represents the world system of rebellion, pleasure,
lust and riches. It represents the low, demonic
road of lies and deceit. We cross that bridge
every time we choose to serve the devil. He has
a lot of bridges that promise happiness, but only
produce bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words and
slander. These are all qualities of vengeance
and malicious behavior -- the very things that
the Lord tells us to rid ourselves of, because
He knows they're bad news.
This low road to Babylon is like a twelve-lane
highway where the majority travels at high speed.
As Christians, we are not to get caught up in
the traffic, but to stay full of the Spirit. We
travel a different road, and we overcome by the
blood of Jesus Christ, always obedient to the
Lord's commands, sharing His testimony by example,
by exemplifying forgiveness. The difference that
God makes in our lives can be seen brightly.
Q: You mentioned that Jesus bridged the gap
between us and God. Can you explain what's different
about this bridge?
Sure. The bridge to God is Jesus Christ. We travel
the high road of life when we choose to serve
Him. His road is full of light, love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness
and self-control; all qualifies of the Kingdom
of God. We choose this road when we choose the
road to Calvary, the mountain where Jesus suffered
and died for us. Calvary means the state of being
tested; mental suffering. This is the Good News,
because Jesus took our place, suffering for us.
The road to Calvary is a narrow road, not many
get on it. The Bible says many are called, but
few are chosen. The Lord is calling all of us
to travel this road. The volume is turned up so
loud on the lower road that many find it hard
to hear His call. He provided forgiveness for
everyone 2000 years ago, and He yearns for us
to receive it so that we will have forgiveness
to give.
Q: So it's pretty easy to see that a relationship
with Jesus Christ gives us power to forgive, right?
That's exactly right, but the enemy still comes
with every argument imaginable as to why we should
not forgive. As we discussed earlier, the devil
is on the prowl, seeking those he may devour.
The way he does this is through demonic thoughts
that don't line up with God's word -- the Truth.
Our enemy becomes our own anger, bitterness and
resentment. He will try to convince us that we
should not forgive, while God's word gives every
reason why we should. There is actually an argument
that goes on in our mind when this happens.
See, we can either agree with the demonic voice,
which always brings confusion, or we can agree
with the voice of God, which brings peace of mind.
In battle, I have learned not to take things personally.
We have a common enemy, so we should not take
the fight personally by fighting each other, but
together, we should turn on him in unity. He is
the enemy bringing this troubling, seducing spirit.
This doesn't mean that we're not answerable for
our choices. If we choose the enemy's deception
by listening to his voice and acting upon it,
we're responsible for our actions. That's why
we must cast down his thoughts, and bring all
of our thoughts into obedience to God. We are
to get mad at the enemy of our soul and stay ready
to resist him steadfastly by faith. The bottom
line is this: we're not going to listen to his
thoughts, which produce hatred, but to God's Word,
which produces love.
Q: Did you feel you needed to forgive anyone
who had wronged you in your past?
All my life, I listened to the enemy. I listened
to people who talked his talk more than I listened
to my parents, and I found role models who did
the same thing. I walked in a rebellious attitude,
but at the same time, I pretended to do the things
that pleased my parents. I walked in the fear
that they wouldn't accept me. In reality, I was
even more worried about being accepted by everyone
else. I ended up in a state of confusion, running
from my fears, and becoming a very angry young
man, blaming everyone else for my troubles.
I blamed my parents instead of taking responsibility
for my own actions. I needed to forgive my parents
only for a perceived wrong. My wrong perceptions
and judgments of others brought forth many rebellious
decisions and much pain. These judgments became
my justification to disobey. If I had walked in
obedience to my parents, things would have gone
well for me. I chose the many bridges to Babylon
and became a very confused person with no sound
identity. I medicated the pain that all this caused
with sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll; but it never
offered any satisfaction. I found that only a
relationship with Jesus Christ could cure the
rebellious soul. He is the only one who brings
true satisfaction, heals all our pain and gives
us joy to live.
Q: Was it hard for you to forgive Manson for
his manipulation?
I know this may be hard to understand, but it
really wasn't hard. I blamed him for a long time,
and I don't believe the crime would have happened
without him. But over the years, I have come to
understand how deceived he was and still is. I
think I was harder on myself for being so ignorant
as to believe in him. I still kick myself often
and say to myself, "How could you be so stupid?"
I was totally blinded on that road to Babylon.
The Bible says that the god of this world blinds
our minds so that the light of the glorious Gospel
can't shine unto us.
Q: How does your family deal with forgiving
you?
My family has always been so great, even while
I blamed them, in part. I'm sorry to say that
I hurt them more by lashing out at them in blame.
They just sat there and loved me. They must have
thought I was mentally ill to do what I had done.
It took awhile for me to tell them how deeply
sorry I was for hurting them and for bringing
such sickening pain to their lives.
My family consists of rock-solid people. I came
from a great family that never stopped loving
me. I consider them victims, too. The pain I have
caused them is tragic. I was the weak link in
our family. I caused tremendous agony. But as
we all cried out to God, He took our pain and
comforted us. My family proved their unconditional
love for me by supporting me all through the years.
Q: Did you have a hard time forgiving yourself?
Yes. As I grew to understand God's forgiveness,
I could forgive myself. It took a while to understand
how He could forgive me, but I thought, if He
can -- I could. It's still difficult to see how
anyone else could forgive me. But, since I've
received this revelation from God, my eyes were
opened to how forgiveness comes from Him through
us.
I still beat up on myself some, but I've learned
that it doesn't do any good to walk around guilt-ridden
with my head hanging down. I did that for several
years before coming to Christ and many brought
it to my attention. Today, I'm not going to torture
myself with my past. Although I look at the crime
through the eyes of the victims, I also look at
myself through the eyes of God -- forgiven. I'm
still ashamed of what I did, but as I draw close
to God, I'm able to walk in the light and power
of what He has done for me.
Q: Do you really feel at peace about your
past?
God's Word tells us to let the peace that comes
from God rule in our hearts. I had no other place
to turn for peace. How could I ever find peace
anywhere else? Everyone, including God, hates
what I did, but He was the only one offering peace.
If I looked at my past in my own mind, I could
never come to peace. What I did was horrific and
unforgivable in my mind. But, as I continue to
let the peace of God rule my heart, there is peace.
I find that continually singing choruses and spiritual
songs to God with thankfulness is the secret to
keeping my heart in peace.
Q: How do you deal with the fact that so many
people don't forgive you?
It's not hard, now that I know I have been accepted
by God. It still hurts, but I understand where
it comes from; so I don't take it personally.
I've built up my identity as a Christian, seeing
myself as God sees me, as a new creation and in
His righteousness, so what other people think
makes little difference. I know who I am in Christ,
what I have from Him, and what I can do. I am
sound and walk strong in his forgiveness.
I find it harder to deal with those people who
look at me as some sort of celebrity -- those
looking for an autograph. It's sort of a turn-off
to see people looking at me or at what I did as
someone or something special. I feel repulsed
by what I did, and I find it hard at times to
meet the public. I'm thankful that my Christian
family treats me in a completely different way.
Q: What do you say to people who say, "I
can forgive you, but I can never forget"?
I can certainly understand that statement. I'm
so thankful that God remembers my sins no more.
He says He has tossed them into the sea of forgetfulness.
So many people carry unforgettable thoughts around.
This shows me the difference in the way we humans
think versus God's way of thinking. He even says
our thoughts are not His and His are not ours,
and that His thoughts are higher than ours. We
all find it hard to forget. I justify it by not
wanting someone to burn me again, but I know I
need to grow out of this weakness. By His grace
we can forget.
Q: You mentioned earlier that the daughter
of one of your victims forgave you. Can you tell
us more about that?
I told you how she wrote me for a year without
telling me it was her mom and stepfather I had
killed. She found out I was real enough to visit,
so she came from New Mexico to tell me who her
parents were and to forgive me. It was a miraculous
event with the anointing of God all over us.
I completely devastated her life; it was an unbearable
loss. I caused her great emotional and even physical
pain. Her children were hurt as well, growing
up without grandparents. She had become a Christian,
and the Lord made it clear that she was to come
and forgive me in person. This started a tremendous
healing process for us both, but it also brought
much persecution.
It costs us much, including persecution, to follow
the voice of God. It seems He never asks an easy
thing of us. It's always more than we can do on
our own power. It takes Calvary working in our
lives, dying to ourselves, and being crucified
with Christ by faith, which enables us to live
this sacrificed life. The Lord had a message that
he wanted to give to the world through Suzan and
me, and the devil hated it.
Q: I can only imagine how that affected both
your lives. Any more specifics?
I can't speak for Suzan, but for myself, I got
a clear picture, through the eyes of my victim,
of the pain I had caused. A deep sorrow filled
my heart. She never shared anything in anger,
only in pure, unconditional love. What she did
was humanly impossible; only God could have done
it.
After many years, we were fortunate enough to
have the opportunity to share our story on video.
It's called Forgiven: The Charles Watson Story.
It shares the miracle better than I'm able to
do in this interview. Anyone can get a the video
from the ministry website. It's a great video
and a powerful witness to share with friends.
Q: Would you like to ask for forgiveness from
anyone in the event they read this interview?
Earlier, when you asked me this I think I declined,
because I felt forgiveness was too much to ask
for. Of course, I have already offered an apology,
but it seems so shallow considering the devastation
I caused in their lives. But yes, I would like
to ask for forgiveness from all the families,
friends and from anyone who was affected by my
crime.
I pray that all I have been sharing is an expression
of my deepest remorse. I feel I am helpless to
do more. I'd like to ask the Tate, La Bianca,
Sebring, Folger, Parent, and Frykowski families
to please consider forgiving me for the horrible
crime I committed against them. I pray that the
power of God brings this to pass in our lives.
I pray for my victims' loved ones, that their
hearts would be comforted with the same comfort
that I have been comforted with through Christ.
I sincerely desire to hear from these families.
I hope that anyone who has been personally affected
by my crime would contact me, whether they forgive
me or not. I believe that just sharing our hearts
will start a healing process. We never know what
the Lord will do if we just take the first step.
Q: What's kept you from reaching out and asking
more people for forgiveness?
I've just always known that it is humanly impossible
to forgive a person and that if the Lord desires
that a person forgive me, He will place it upon
their heart. I still believe this, but at the
same time, I feel an obligation to reach out my
hand. I'm willing to take the risk of having it
slapped away.
I really don't want to be more offensive and
create further damage. I have nothing to lose
and everything to gain, but Lord knows I don't
want to cause more pain. My intentions are pure.
Q: Charles, I hope you do receive forgiveness
from those you've hurt, but aren't you asking
them to take a liberal view on crime?
No, I don't think so. I'm talking about a Godly
view, and He isn't liberal with sin, but merciful.
His forgiveness is freely given to everyone; but
to receive it, we must repent by turning from
our sin to Him.
Recently, I read an article about the liberal
view. It talked about several things: the charitable
attitude we have toward teenage pregnancies. An
advisor to former President Clinton was caught
up in a prostitute-related scandal, yet he was
back to work within a few months. A prominent
TV sports announcer was involved in a lurid sexual
adventure and was rehired to a radio broadcast
position. The polls show how much our past President
benefited from the public's willingness to forgive,
whether or not he repented of his sexual affairs,
Whitewater financial dealings, fudging in his
dealings with the draft, smoking pot, etc.
This is the liberal view: a life lived in compromise.
In today's society, all sins aren't against the
laws of the country. In the Old Testament, adultery
and many other sins called for the death penalty,
but God in His mercy reversed that penalty through
Jesus Christ. But if we approve of sins such as
these, we will exemplify that it's okay to our
children. As we confess our unbelief to God and
turn from our sin to Him, we're promised forgiveness
and hope of forgiveness from one another.
Q: Can you clarify what you mean when you
ask victims' families to forgive?
This is why I've hesitated to ask my victims'
families to forgive me. I knew that I'd be asking
more from them than is within their ability to
give. But I pray they would know that God desires
to give them the ability to forgive, and that
it is for their good and for their healing.
I also pray they would recognize that forgiveness
for the sinner is freely paid for by God. It's
something we can't earn or pay for ourselves.
This helps us to overcome our attempt to ensure
that offenders "pay" for their offenses
against us.
See, forgiveness means giving up the desire to
punish the one who has offended us. I'm not saying
we're to make light of the injury; rather, we're
to fully acknowledge the cost of the injury. Then,
by God's grace at work in us, we cancel the debt
in order for the healing process to take place.
I'm asking that the victims' families draw near
to Christ, and allow Him to bear the pain of my
offense. This doesn't mean they should overlook
or accept the wrongful behavior, or that punishment
in prison should end, but that by forgiving they
can be healed, and recover. As a result, this
cancerous, unforgiving spirit will not be able
to hurt us any longer.
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