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The Death Penalty

Q: Charles, I want to talk about the death penalty. But first, by doing this interview, do you fear being misunderstood by the victims' families?

I pray they'll see this entire interview as an apology to them. I hope to answer their most often asked question: "Why?" or "How?" There is no justifiable reason for my crimes.

I hope to express my deepest regret for this wrong done to them. I feel a mandate to share my heart, but I don't want to be even more offensive. I hope to offer some answers, knowing that nothing I can do will take away the pain I have caused. Only God can do that.

But also, I'm willing to take the chance of being misunderstood, in hopes that even one rebellious youth will hear my message and turn to God. This is what halts the evil nature of mankind from creating more victims and bringing ruin to more families.

Q: You were sentenced to death for your crime, correct?

Yes, that's right. My trial was separate from Manson and the girls'. I fought extradition from Texas, thinking that a separate trial with a "diminished capacity" defense might yield a different result, but it didn't. We all received sentences of death and ended up on death row.


Q: Weren't you shaken and scared by the sentence?

It was a scary thought -- going to death row, but getting out of Los Angeles County Jail was such a relief. I arrived at San Quentin in November 1971, and actually started coming back to life there. The trial had really worn me down and surprisingly, the pressure lifted.

During my days in County Jail and while on death row, I sought God to comfort me in my pain. I believed He had His hand on me and that I could even hear His voice, and He assured me that I was His and that He had forgiven me for all the evil I had done. But still, I had not taken Him as Lord of my life. I wanted all that He had for me, but I was not willing to give Him my whole life. That would come later.

Q: Did you ever think of committing suicide and saving the state the money?

No, not really, although I got to a pretty lowly state in the Los Angeles County Jail -- to the point of not wanting to live. I felt like a stranger in a strange land. I became very paranoid, lonely and full of guilt. I stopped eating and lost weight -- down to 106 pounds. I was tied to a bed and forced to eat through tube feeding. I was diagnosed as catatonic and sent off to a mental hospital. I had given up and wasn't willing to help myself.

During that time, a jail chaplain reached out and ministered spiritual life to me. He kept me going in jail, and the better treatment in the hospital got me back to jail for trial. The chaplain was waiting and slowly nursed me back to life through God's Word. My mom had sent him materials to give to me. The Lord revealed to me during that time that whether I lived or died, I was His. I believe that my early upbringing in the church helped me to reach out to God instead of turning to suicide. Hope was always in the back of my mind, and my family never gave up on me.

Q: Why weren't you put to death?

Well, in 1972 the death penalty was declared "cruel and unusual punishment." I remember waiting up that night to hear the news. We were all relieved; the threat of death was gone, and now there could be some sort of future. I was only on death row for nine months.

By the time I got to death row, there was already talk that it would be abolished, plus my attorney in Texas assured me that it would never be carried out again in California. For me this was true, but just a couple of years later, it was brought back. I look on it as God's mercy and His having a different plan for my life, undeserving as I was.

In reality, three decades ago, society looked far more skeptically upon this ultimate punishment. Back then, 47% of Americans opposed the death penalty and 42% favored it. I believe there was just a greater sense of mercy and less anger in society at that time.

Q: Can't you understand how the victims' families wanted you to be put to death?

Yes, it's easy to understand. I've often thought of the life I have been able to live, unlike their family members whose lives I destroyed. I live with the way my sin affected other people. It doesn't seem fair to me either. I can't explain it, or the reason other unjust things like this take place. They truly didn't deserve all the pain I caused, nor did I deserve to live.

I know the shame and heartache of living with the past. The effects of my sin are tremendous. I have experienced God's forgiveness, but there are those who will never forgive what I have done. I feel most victims despise God's goodness on the repentant sinner. The whole point of the Gospel message is that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. This includes me! Jesus doesn't want me suffering in my sin. He sees me forgiven and desires my total restoration, but still, there are many painful aspects of my sowing and reaping.

I understand the needs of the victims' families, who haven't received God's ability to feel compassion toward the prisoner. I think we have to be able to separate the sin from the sinner. I hate what I did to my victims. I hate the crimes committed by those who live around me. I live with the worst of sinners, but by separating their sin from them, I am able to love them. That is how others can love me. I've learned that God loves the sin-ner, but hates the sin. I try to look upon those around me as God would -- with open, loving arms. We can only do this with His help -- the power of the Holy Spirit.

Q: So do you think you deserved the death penalty?

Yes, without a doubt. I've always said that if anyone deserved the death penalty, it was me. For some reason, I didn't get what I deserved. I choose to believe it was the grace of God, but others call it a fluke in the law. I was shown mercy when I showed no mercy. I didn't deserve this mercy, but I am very thankful for it. I've been given a second chance.

I could be the poster child for death penalty advocates, but at the same time, I feel my life testifies to the fact that God can take evil people and change them, including me. I feel that many people who are being executed today are totally changed people from who they were when they committed the crime, but no mercy is found for them.

Q: What is this term "closure" that the victims' family members use so often?

I see it as the victims' families desiring my life to cease, just as I caused the life of their family member to cease; sort of like "an eye for an eye" -- justice done. I believe they're convinced that their terrible loss will be lessened by the taking of another life.

The U.S. News and World Report recently reported that families of victims who chose to witness executions of those convicted of the murder of their loved ones, more often than not, find no closure or healing in the process.

I am sympathetic toward the families' need for closure, but I wonder, too, if pain can be relieved through the death of an offender. Jesus says, "…Come to me, all you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle, and you will find rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28, 29 NLT).

I believe that true closure comes only after forgiving the offender. God desires reconciliation between the victim and the offender. He loves both equally, and His ultimate desire is for healing both parties. Jesus made this possible on the cross of Calvary where he said, "It is finished," and then He died for our sins. Closure comes as we come to know God's forgiveness for our sins through our loving Savior, and then we're able, by His power, to forgive those who have sinned against us.

Q: You mean God doesn't desire that a man be put to death for his crimes?

Biblically, we're living in the period of grace. God's grace is sufficient for every sin, and His mercy must be the guiding factor in the decisions of our justice system. Only the Holy and just God of Scripture can administer the final punishment.

I believe that Jesus Christ took our death penalty on the cross of Calvary -- God's ultimate punishment. "The wages of sin is death," and if it were not for Jesus' death, as sinners, the penalty would be death for us all. But God in His mercy put our sins upon His Son. He took our place on the cross so that justice would not demand our death. The cross was a place of execution.

Q: You're saying that Jesus Christ abolished the death penalty?

We know that He took on Himself the penalty for our sin so that we are free from the wrath of God. We know this does not free us from the penalty of a crime against society. A prisoner must still do his time. Whether this penalty includes being put to death or not has spawned one of the fiercest debates of the century, outside the abortion issue. I believe Christ took my death penalty.

What most pro-death-penalty activists forget is that murder in the Old Testament wasn't the only death-penalty sin. There were forty-two death-penalty sins including adultery, kidnapping, witchcraft, idolatry, working on the Sabbath, sodomy, homosexuality, whoredom, sacrilege, stubbornness and rebellion, gluttony, drunkenness and many others. It wasn't only eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth; but you could be set on fire, stoned, hung, put to death with a sword and scourged for almost anything, including cursing your parents.

On top of this, Jesus preached in his Sermon on the Mount that even if you look at woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery, and He said being angry gets the same judgment as killing someone. God's law reveals our sinfulness and need for grace. His grace and mercy free us from the penalty of death.

Q: So why do we consider murder the only death-penalty sin, when the Old Testament calls for the death penalty for many sins?

That's a good question. It seems that if we were going to defend the death penalty by using the Old Testament, we'd have the death penalty for all those crimes. This way the United States could become the number-one executioner in the world.

The top executioners today are China, Ukraine, Belarus, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Singapore and a few others; the same countries who persecute Christians the most. China executed almost 4,200 people in 1997, versus 74 in the USA. China executes unsavory businessmen, bandits and political deviants. If the United States were to impose the death penalty for all Old Testament sins, we could easily match or exceed the execution rate of all countries combined.

But I don't think the conscience of our country could handle scores of executions a day. In reality, this is what we're facing in the 21st century. We must take a serious look at our death-penalty laws and see that it didn't work in the Old Testament, and it won't work today. Jesus came to give us a new way to deal with the sins of mankind through His grace and mercy. The New Testament is quite clear that "mercy triumphs over judgment."

Q: What was the early churches' attitude toward criminals and the death penalty?

The Apostle Paul said in II Timothy 1:10 that "...our Savior Jesus Christ has abolished death and has brought life through the Gospel." We know that Paul is talking about spiritual death. We will all die physically unless Jesus Christ returns before that time. But should prisoners die at the hands of an angry society or a revengeful justice system? Paul's answer, "This is a true saying, and everyone should believe it: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners -- and I was the worst of them all" (I Timothy 1:15 NLT).

Of course, the Apostle Paul had been forgiven much, even for killing Christians. As a Pharisee, he was very self-righteous in his beliefs, until Christ delivered him from this ancient Jewish sect noted for strict observance and ceremonies. As a Christian, Paul didn't consider the purpose of the law for capital punishment, but to expose sin and our need for a merciful Savior.

Q: So you're saying God's justice in the Old Testament is now carried out differently in the New, right?

Yes, and I believe He expects mankind to administer justice differently in light of the cross of Calvary. God is not angry; He is a loving Heavenly Father. After man sinned in the garden, He called for Adam in order to help him. Adam was fearful, but God reached out in love. God gave the law as a way for man to avoid falling under the curse of sin and to be aware of how to walk in His blessings. Even when we were dead in sin, God loved us and wanted us to experience His best.

Under the curse of the Old Testament law, justice demanded payment for sin by the one who committed it. When sin reigned, God was angry. He was required by righteousness to judge sin in the flesh of man. But regardless, He has wanted our best for four thousand years, to bring man into a loving relationship with Him.

When the Messiah, Jesus Christ, took our curse by dying on Calvary in our place for our sin, God's justice for sin was satisfied. As a result, when we receive Christ, a relationship of peace with God comes, no matter what our sin. God dealt with sin, made us righteous, and finds no fault with us. He washed us with the blood of Christ. We have full acceptance in Christ. We will reap what we have sown. God will bring correction and discipline to our lives, but He will never hurt or reject us. Does this sound like a God who demands the death penalty today, or a Heavenly Father who loves even the worst of His wayward children?

Jesus was confronted by the Pharisees for dining with many notorious sinners. He replied, "Healthy people don't need a doctor -- sick people do." Then He added, "…Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to be merciful; I don't want your sacrifices.' For I have come to call sinners, not those who think they are already good enough" (Matthew 9:13; 12:7 NLT).

Q: What was Jesus' view on the death penalty?

Jesus, as the Son of Man, chose His Father's view. He said, "…I do nothing without consulting the Father. I judge as I am told. And my judgment is absolutely just, because it is according to the will of God who sent me, it is not merely my own" (John 5:30 NLT).

Jesus Christ reflected the Father's glory, full of grace and truth (John 1:14, 16-18). The LORD revealed Himself to Moses, showing that His nature and glory were compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin (Exodus Ch. 33 & 34).

As Christians, we are reflectors of God's nature and glory. Our hearts have been softened, and the veil of flesh removed by the work of the cross. We are to walk as Jesus walked in the presence of our Heavenly Father (II Corinthians Ch. 3 & 4). Sadly, too many of us reflect the popular political view rather than take a stand for the heart and will of God.

Q: You're not saying the early church believed there should be no punishment for sin, are you?

No, not at all! A few years ago, Cornerstone Magazine, a publication from a Chicago-based ministry, Jesus People U.S.A., published an article with many insights concern-ing the early church and the death penalty that I'd like to share with you. The authors, Larry Bishop and Mark Metcalf commented, after much research, that the attitude of the early church wasn't to acquit the guilty, but to welcome a returning sinner. The attitude was to encourage and to revive the sinner, not to judge or to reject him. The purpose being to bring forth repentance through God's goodness, hope, mercy and compassion. Augustine, one of our early-church fathers, wished that criminals wouldn't be "…avenged by the infliction of similar injuries in the way of retaliation." He called for judgment to "…be tempered by considerations of humanity…not to gratify the passion of revenge…but to exercise a desire to heal them."

The early churches' attitude toward criminal offenders can be found in the Apostolic Constitutions. These are laws for government in the early church. These laws upheld the concept of a God who is righteous and merciful. They stated that offenses must not be ignored, yet offenders must not be condemned.

The early church focused on forgiveness and compassion, in opposition to the strict application of the law, and was interested in healing, instead of expelling and rejecting criminals. In their mind, reconciliation with God was number one, followed by the restoration of community relationships.

Q: What has been secular society's effect on the Biblical way?

The church began to take on secular views during the time of Constantine around 350 A.D. The Emperor Constantine made Christianity the state religion, but in so doing, he infected the church with a human institution, laying the foundation for the current Christian view of criminal justice. He didn't consecrate his life or the state to God. Today, the falsely-interpreted "separation of church and state" doctrine does the same. The intention of the first amendment was not to remove Godly values and ethics from our criminal justice system. I believe the Biblical way is to incorporate Scriptural principles of grace, mercy and forgiveness in providing alternatives to the death penalty.

I know Jesus said we should "…render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's," but He wasn't co-signing Caesar's actions that were contrary to the Word of God. It's important to ask ourselves what Jesus would do concerning capital punishment, regardless of the government's stand on it.

The popularity of the death penalty reveals one's unbelief in the love and mercy of God. On the other hand, "…to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God" as the Prophet Micah declares, is proof of really knowing God.

Q: But isn't the state an essential part of God's earthly social order in all its functions?

Yes, but we must be able to distinguish between the God of an American civil religion and the God who reveals Himself through Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures. As a society, many people have become politically conservative in their thinking and they equate this with conservative theology.

The Apostle Paul said in the beginning of Romans 13 that we should submit to all secular authorities, affirming that they are instituted for our good. He says they "bear not the sword in vain." The word "sword" or "machaira" in Greek is symbolic of judicial authority. It could include the death penalty, but in context with the end of Romans 12, Paul admonishes us to "Recompense to no man evil for evil…for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord.'"

I believe we are on shaky ground when we seek to justify capital punishment by using Romans 13. As a society, many have convinced themselves that capital punishment is God's will, a belief that provides both executioner and spectator with the feeling that they are directly involved in the Lord's work.

Q: So am I hearing you saying that we aren't called to carry out God's vengeance?

That's exactly what I'm saying. If we're honest with our-selves, we'll have to admit that we're retaliating in vengeance, not justice, when it comes to capital punishment. Vengeance is just a natural response of the vindictive nature of fallen man.

We're not called to carry out God's vengeance. If our heart is revengeful, we must ask God to convict our heart, knowing that our works will be judged by Him. James, our Lord's half-brother wrote: "For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, God's mercy toward you will win out over His judgment against you" (2:13 NLT).

Q: What are some of the Biblical examples where God has shown mercy instead of the judgment of death?

The Cornerstone article mentions three examples God gives us of how He expects man to administer justice with mercy, instead of vengeance. They are the cases of Cain, David and the woman caught in adultery.

Cain murdered his brother Abel in anger. God confronted him and punished him. Cain was concerned about vengeful people slaying him for what he had done, so God set a mark on him so that none would kill him. This is God's example of justice to mankind.

David, a man after God's own heart, committed adultery with Bathsheba, then had her husband killed. God told David as a result: "…the sword shall never depart from thine house," and He took David's wives. David repented. The Lord forgave David and told him: "…thou shalt not die." God had mercy upon David. He had a different plan for David's life (II Samuel 12).

The woman caught in adultery in John chapter 8 was brought by the scribes and Pharisees to Jesus. They told Him the law commanded her to be stoned, but what would He do? He told them, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (John 8:7). They were convicted by their own conscience, and they walked away. Since they did not condemn her, He told the woman that He didn't condemn her either. Public exposure turned out to be enough to punish her.

Q: We hear victims of crime crying out for justice, but I hear you saying that mercy is the answer, right?

Justice has come to mean only punishment and even vengeance as we have seen. Righteous justice is doing what is right or just, not getting justice. Those crying out for justice do not know God's justice. It includes His grace and mercy of the New Testament and His expression of love for all mankind, including those convicted of capital offenses.

We really need to look at this issue from God's perspective. God asks the Prophet Ezekiel to speak His mind in chapter 33:11. "As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness…why should you die?"

As we really dig into God's word, we will see that God's emphasis is not on vengeance, but on merciful justice. I am so thankful for the mercy I have been shown by God and the criminal justice system, but I wonder if there is still a place for mercy in our legal system today. Surely, vengeance and killing sanctioned by the state, do not reach for a higher sense of justice and healing, but rather, just the opposite.

Q: Do you see the death penalty being unevenly applied in a discriminatory and flawed fashion?

It's pretty widely known through recent studies that the death penalty is a privilege of the poor and penniless; those who come from minority groups or impoverished backgrounds, those who are not able to afford decent legal help or those who didn't have the resources and abilities to defend themselves. Some are even retarded.

There are a number of death-row inmates who have been found innocent and released. Prosecutors, judges and juries can make mistakes in the justice process. There's a long list of prisoners who have been executed, and were innocent. Almost one hundred prisoners have been proven innocent, removed from death row, and freed from prison since the death penalty was re-instated in 1977. And to top it off, we will soon be executing the first of sixty-seven juveniles on death row.

Q: Do you believe the death penalty is a deterrent?

There is only scant evidence that it deters crime. There are no statistical facts to prove its deterrent effect. The courts have recognized that capital punishment doesn't deter crime.

Of course, the executed prisoner will never commit another crime, but studies show that few murderers who are released ever commit another violent crime. Chuck Colson doesn't think it's a deterrent either. He says, "It's a wasted and futile exercise that brings out the worst instinct for revenge in society."

The argument can be made that if the purpose of capital punishment is to deter future crimes, executions should be made public or even televised, instead of in private. Perhaps society's conscience could take executing thousands of prisoners a year in these small, sterile chambers, quietly applying lethal injections, but it wouldn't have the deterrent effect desired.

Q: Some people believe if a prisoner repents, only then should they be spared. What do you think?

I don't think we deserve to impose the death penalty regardless of repentance or lack of repentance. I don't think by executing a person, we've given him every opportunity to repent, be saved and use their life for the propagation of the Gospel.

I find it interesting that Missouri is talking about commuting a death penalty offense to life without parole if a death-row prisoner will give up his kidney or bone marrow. Some people liken this to China selling body parts of pre-executed bodies.

On the other hand, if the requirement was to repent in order to not be executed, we'd have many faking repentance. But I do believe that a prisoner should go through a repentance process before being released into society. As God redeems damaged lives, they are turned toward usefulness.

Q: So am I hearing you saying that a prisoner's life is valuable to God, but not to man?

That's right. God values every life -- man, woman, or child. We're made in God's image and are of enormous value in His eyes. God is pro-life: the life of the unborn, the elderly and the prisoner, even those on death row.

God gave man dominion over the earth, and Romans 13 confirms this by saying that God has placed all govern-ments in power. We are admonished to obey the governments that are sent by God to help us. As a result, things are promised to go well; but if we disobey, we will be brought under their punishment.

The death penalty is a part of our government's punishment now. God permits the death penalty and abortion to take place, but it doesn't mean He approves of it. His perfect will is mercy and life to both the unborn and the prisoner, but He needs man's cooperation.

God awaits our government to turn to Him, and He promises to heal our land. This includes the healing of our crime problem and replacing capital punishment with mercy. As we show mercy through a kinder society, we will see a kinder and gentler response. The prisoner needs a loving and merciful example.

Q: Do you think people are rethinking their stand on the death penalty after Karla Faye Tucker was put to death?

It may sound strange, but I believe Karla's blood cries out for justice and mercy. I pray that in some way I can help keep the impact that she had upon our society alive. What was the greater value to society -- Karla's removal in the death chamber, or her presence as a reminder that even a life shattered by addiction, violence and prostitution can be redeemed and turned toward service to God and helping others.

I don't believe that women should receive greater leniency than men when it comes to the death penalty, born-again or not, but I think Karla's situation truly shows us the hardness of man's heart. God is more than aware of this hardness of heart in the Old Testament when He gave man the freedom to divorce. Jesus' comment was, "Moses permitted divorce as a concession to your hard-hearted wickedness, but it was not what God had originally intended" (Matthew 19:8 NLT). I believe God allows the death penalty because of the hardness of man's heart, but it's not what He intends. God intends for us to be merciful above all.

I believe the execution of men, women and children is a national tragedy. We human beings did not create life. God created this life, and He should be the only one to take it. Nothing is accomplished by the taking of another life, and it can never compensate for the victim's life.

I think our Christian sisters and brothers are asking themselves what place mercy has in America's justice system. And a more difficult question is: How do we relate to someone with a heinous past who truly exhibits what the Apostle Paul called the "fruit of the Spirit" given to those redeemed? Karla's plea for mercy was denied, yet her life continued to exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control.

Perhaps God's purpose for Karla's redeemed life was to afflict us with these agonizing questions so that we and our justice system might be redeemed from the rituals of death in which we now engage ourselves.

Q: Do you know of any examples of criminals who escaped execution, were transformed and went on to become decent and useful citizens?

Yes, I do. Recently, I read of a Nathan Leopold. He and another man were wealthy college boys who murdered a 14-year-old just to show that they could commit the perfect crime. Famed attorney Clarence Darrow saved them from execution in 1924. Mr. Darrow told the judge:

"Your Honor stands between the past and the future. You may hang these boys by the neck until they are dead. But you will turn your face toward the past. I am pleading for the future, for a time when hatred and cruelty will not control the hearts of men, when we can learn by reason and judgment and understanding and faith that all life is worth saving and that mercy is the highest attribute of man."

I'm happy to report that Leopold lived to become a better person. His exemplary prison record and his contribution as a volunteer for dangerous malaria testing during World War II led to a reduction of his sentence by Illinois Governor Adlai Stevenson and to a pardon in 1958. He went to Puerto Rico to work in hospitals and church missions. In time, he married, earned a master's degree and taught mathematics.

I know others who have escaped the sentence of death. They are free, working and living honorably in society now, but it's rare that a person gets a second chance in this day and age.

Q: Charles, I believe your life is an example of a transformed life, as well. Are you resigned to the penalty you will pay for your past?

I think so. I've been in prison for over three decades. There's no light at the end of the tunnel. I'm just so thankful for the body of Christ and for receiving this second chance in life.

My heart rejoices that Christ took all my judgment on Himself for sin at the cross of Calvary. I boast solely in Christ alone with the Apostle Paul, saying, " …if any man be in Christ, he is a new [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new…for God has made Christ to be sin for [me, He] knew no sin, that [I] might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (II Corinthians 5:17,21).

I'm reminded daily of my past. I've been marked in the eyes of man as a murderer, but the mark has been removed in God's eyes and in the eyes of all those who love Him, and He has protected me. I believe the Lord had a different plan for me. My life is in His hands and His grace is sufficient for me until His return. I'd ask for one thing -- your prayers.

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