The Crime
Q: Charles, let's talk about the crime. Is
that going to be difficult for you?
In many ways it's more difficult to talk about
the crime today than it was thirty years ago.
I've learned to deal properly with the pain of
what I have done, and not just medicate it with
mind-altering drugs. I now have compassion for
the pain of others. Just thinking about my horrible,
evil actions toward my victims causes great pain.
I only have peace in knowing God's grace. His
forgiveness makes it easier to be honest and transparent.
I've learned how to place my pain and sorrow upon
Christ and His cross, where it belongs. He came
to take our pain and grief. I thank God for His
unspeakable mercy toward me!
Q: Talking about honesty, haven't you always
admitted your part in the crimes?
That's right. At the trial, I confessed to my
part in the murders. But over the years, thanks
to God, I've become more honest with myself and
have grown out of denial, without minimizing my
actions. When sharing my testi-mony, I do feel
it is important to share my thoughts concerning
those vices I indulged in, without blaming them
for my actions. Also, I now look at the crime
through the eyes of others, rather than just my
own. In my book, Will You Die For Me? I discuss
the murders in depth.
Q: How did you feel the day between the Tate
and LaBianca murders and shortly afterward?
I'm ashamed to say it, but I didn't have a lot
of feelings. My conscience had become hardened
because of my own rebellion. My feelings were
dulled through the effects of drugs. But I did
have some feelings; more than I admitted to Manson.
I was supposed to be without feelings according
to Manson's teachings, but in reality, my feelings
were all mixed up. I was depressed, downhearted,
spiritless and even disoriented during the crime
and afterward. I remember sitting in a dry creek
bed by myself. I couldn't believe it was me doing
what I was doing. I just wanted it to stop, but
I felt pressure to go along the next night. I
remember thinking as we drove around, "Please
don't let Charlie find a house to do the same
thing in."
Q: Didn't you make up a lie to tell Manson,
so he wouldn't demand more murders?
Yes, I did. I thought Manson was going to ask
us to commit more murders. I was convinced he
would've continued the murders until Helter Skelter
started, and I just couldn't do it again.
The same friend who I went to live with for 3
months when I ran away from Manson, called the
ranch where the Manson family was living, saying
my mom had called, all worried, looking for me.
I told Manson that I had called my mom in Texas
and that the F.B.I. had come to my parents' home
accusing me of murder. As a result, that lie stopped
the killing, and he sent us all to the desert.
I was so relieved.
Q: What were your feelings for the victims?
Over the years, my feelings for others had diminished.
I was selfish and self-seeking, but never thought
of murdering anyone. The night of the murders,
I tried to medicate my pain with methamphetamines,
but actually, it made it easier to turn my rebellion,
fear and anger loose on my victims. Anyone outside
the family had become the establishment, pigs
-- it was us and them. My life had come to mean
nothing, so everyone's life meant nothing. Death
lost its meaning since the end of the world was
near. I had no emotional attachments with my victims,
whom I had never met. Yet, during the murders,
I remember conflicting feelings would arise in
a flash, but were overcome because Manson's law
was greater than my conscience. He promised us
a life free of fear and judgment.
Q: Didn't you have second thoughts about committing
murder?
Yes, I did. From the moment Manson gave us the
orders, I began to have second thoughts. How would
I carry this out? As I drove to the crime scene,
the girls and I were silent and almost frozen.
Our thoughts were in turmoil and we got lost for
an hour. But once we got to the house, it was
like all our anger against those who had caused
us so much fear in life, came out all at once.
The meth sped up my thoughts and moved me ahead
of my feelings. My actions even got ahead of me.
What I was to do overloaded my mind. I was possessed
with Manson's thoughts and the thought of pleasing
him, so much so, that his voice was like a recording
playing through my brain.
Q: What were you thinking and feeling right
when the murders were taking place?
The girls and I didn't enjoy murdering our victims.
It was insanely difficult for us all, but our
slavish hearts were committed. We wanted this
outbreak of violence to be over with. We felt
we had to do it. We wanted to get it done and
leave. It was horrific, and no way were we going
to go to a second or third house, even though
Manson had ordered it.
There were no thoughts of concern for the victims.
There was a total disregard for life. I was concerned
with destroying everyone and not getting discovered.
In some ways, punishment escaped my mind since
Helter Skelter was coming down and society, as
we knew it, was coming to an end.
An overriding thought was, "I'm the devil,
and I'm here to do the devil's work," and
that's what I told my second victim. I had given
myself to a very dark, demonic and evil power,
and now it was being released all at once. As
evidenced by the murders, it was a very destructive
power driving me to violence.
Q: Do you think you were possessed by the
devil?
Possessed? I don't know, but I was definitely
influenced by the power of sorcery. I'm not saying
"the devil made me do it," or that Manson
made me do it; but there were powerful demonic
influences that I had given myself to. I was totally
out of control.
We were living in demon territory. As we took
drugs, the door was wide open for them to enter
us. I believe we took on their power without even
knowing it. It was demonstrated by the very words
from my mouth.
Q: Was Manson pleased with the murders?
Manson was never pleased. He always wanted more
from us. He knew that we had never been able to
please anyone in our lives and that we'd do anything
to please him. He was our god. It's too bad that
we didn't know the true God and that He is the
only one we must truly please.
Manson said that the murders were too messy and
that there was too much panic. He said he'd show
us how to do it right the next night. I think
we all dreaded that -- I know I did. He was the
only one excited about the murders. I think he
also enjoyed the power that he held over us. My
heart was sickened. After the murders, I remember
saying, "What have I done?"
Q: You said Manson thought the murders were
too messy. Can you elaborate on that?
The first night of murders was total panic. Manson's
idea was to keep the victims totally calm before
they were killed. This gives you some insight
into the extremely evil and calculating heart
of Manson. And sure enough, on the second night,
he went along to keep the victims calm.
It's not easy for me to talk about or to read
about the actual murders as portrayed in my book
Will You Die For Me? The facts of my book were
taken from tape recordings I did with my attorney
only four months after the crime. These recordings
were very accurate descrip-tions of the crime,
play-by-play. It's very painful for me as I recall
destroying so many lives. I detest what I did.
As I think about it, I get angry with myself.
Only by the grace of God have I been able to overcome
the guilt.
Q: How long after the crime was it before
you were arrested, and what was going through
your mind during that time?
It was four months -- the longest, most tormenting
four months of my life. We had gone to Death Valley
as a result of my telling Manson that the F.B.I.
was looking for me. I was afraid he would order
more murders. At the same time, I finally felt
accepted into the family, but I also felt some
of the family members were actually afraid of
me now.
As time passed in the desert, I became more and
more confused. We couldn't find the Bottomless
Pit spoken of in Revelation, we ran out of drugs,
and the law seemed to be closing in on us. Two
park rangers had started asking questions, so
Charlie ordered them killed. He felt they'd show
up at an old run-down cabin the next day, so he
left me there with a shotgun overnight to wait
for them. I knew I wasn't going to kill them,
so the next morning I took off in an old pickup
and ran from Charlie. I drove the truck as far
as it would go. I hitchhiked to the city, called
my parents for money and flew to Texas.
Q: What was it like to commit such a horrible
crime and then go back home to Texas?
I couldn't believe what I had done. I became
even more confused. I began to question Manson's
beliefs. Helter Skelter was not happening, and
it was hard to believe that Texas was still the
same. The only helter-skelter happening there
was in my mind. I didn't know which was stranger
-- the Manson family or my family. It was like
being suspended between two worlds. I just wanted
the whole Manson world, what I had done, and where
I had been, to not be real. Unable to erase the
thoughts, I went into a deep depression.
Q: What did your parents think, and how did
you relate to them?
My mother took me to the doctor. All I wanted
to do was lie around in the dark. I ate very little.
My mind was in turmoil as thoughts of Manson's
and my family's beliefs came into conflict. I
felt Manson was wrong and that I had done the
wrong thing. I didn't know what was true, but
I did know that there was a sick feeling in my
gut. I would lash out at my parents in anger.
In my heart, I blamed them for expectations of
me that were too great, which I felt caused me
to leave Texas in the first place. I was angry
with myself for making such a grave mistake and
for being in that situation.
I felt deceived, and I felt a need to run, fearing
the law would be looking for me soon. I took money
from my parents and flew to Mexico and then to
Hawaii. There was no place to hide from what I
had done. Changing locations didn't change what
I had done or the real me -- my heart. I left
Hawaii and tried to get back to Charlie by walking
miles through the desert, only to turn back when
I got to within five miles of where I'd left him.
I returned to Texas instead. Nothing had changed,
I was still depressed. I couldn't forget what
I had done, and my heart was in turmoil even after
traveling thousands of miles. There was no place
to hide, and I wasn't emotionally strong enough
to keep running.
Q: What were you really running from, Manson
or what you had done?
I was running from what I had done. Manson wasn't
after me, but his beliefs were attacking my mind.
I was running from the thought of the murders.
I could see myself committing them in living color,
and it was ugly. I tried to distance myself from
it, but I couldn't. I was carrying it around inside
me. I was tormented by the thought of it. So the
easiest way to deal with what I had done was to
deny that it was real.
When I hear of crimes committed today and the
offend-ers say they can't remember it, I know
they're lying. No matter how many drugs they were
on, or how many demons had hold of them, they
can remember it. They just don't want to remember,
simply because it's too horrible. Besides, it
seems to be a good defense to say they can't remember.
I could remember it all too well.
Q: Did you understand the magnitude of your
crime?
I knew I had done something very horrible, but
I was trying to put it out of my mind. On the
run, I didn't hear the news and remember seeing
a newspaper article on the crime only once. I
just wanted to run away. I didn't begin to realize
the magnitude of the crime until they came looking
for me in Texas. That's when I turned myself in.
I couldn't run from it any longer. It was almost
a relief. The fear of being caught subsided, but
the shame and guilt of the crime had just begun.
Q: How long was it before you truly became
remorseful?
We told Manson that during the crimes, we had
no remorse. That was what he wanted to hear, but
it didn't take long for me to feel remorseful
once his influence and the drugs wore off.
There are different depths of remorse. The Bible
says, "For God can use sorrow in our lives
to help us turn away from sin and seek salvation.
We will never regret that kind of sorrow. But
sorrow without repentance is the kind that results
in death" (II Corinthians 7:10 NLT). I felt
distress and a sense of guilt from the beginning,
but my denial was too great for me to experience
deep remorse. I was no longer killing my pain
with drugs, but instead, I started blaming others,
making excuses and mitigating my actions. I learned
this well during my trial and while on appeals.
We came up with every extenuating circum-stance
in the book. During my first few years in prison,
I wanted to put the crime behind me. When flashes
of it came up in my mind, I turned them off because
the pain was too intense. But eventually, I saw
that my unwilling-ness to think about my crime
prevented me from experiencing the proper feelings
for what I had done.
Q: How did you handle the pain you were experiencing?
The suffering I had caused was too great to look
at with-out God's help. I needed strength to look
at my victims' pain. I read Helter Skelter from
cover to cover, along with the Bible. It was similar
to the law of God showing me my wickedness and
my need for Him. I had a picture book in my mind
of the crime and the voices of my victims' last
words. By this time, I had asked Christ to come
into my life, and it was easier to look at everything
knowing He had forgiven me. I began to see my
victims as people, and that I had shattered the
lives of their families. I experienced their pain
as much as I could through what I was reading
about them, to the point of many tears. One thing
became very clear: until I was able to deal with
my own pain, I could never understand the pain
of my many victims and their families.
The Lord showed me my sin and my sickness to
a point of great shame and guilt. He showed me
the enormous value of life and how He hated what
I had done. At the same time, He showed me how
He loved me, had forgiven me, and had a new identity
for me. His forgiveness is what made it possible
for me to be honest with myself and others about
my past.
Q: Do you think the crime would have been
committed if you weren't on drugs?
It's big news today that drugs, especially methamphetamines,
bring out the worst in people. I spoke with a
man recently whose father knew Hitler. He shared
how Bayer, a German pharmaceutical company made
meth in the late '30s. He told how Hitler abused
it. He became so paranoid that he and a few men
killed his body guards, thinking they were out
to kill him. Meth was part of the German army's
ration kit. It has been called "the drug
of violence." I can testify as to the violence.
By no means do I blame my crime on drugs. I voluntarily
got high on meth, deadening what feelings I had
at the time of my crime. I do think that without
the drugs, my conscience would have checked me,
and together with the girls, we would have decided
that what we were about to do was hideous and
insane. The drugs took us over the edge and took
the hesitation out of what we were ordered to
do. They were definitely a large part of the driving
force from within that destroyed all inhibitions.
Drugs were a catalyst that released all the demons
from inside of us.
Q: Would the crimes have happened without
Manson's order?
Definitely not! Bugliosi, the prosecuting attorney,
agrees that Manson was the catalyst. We would
never have gone out on our own and killed people.
It was not our idea of an exciting night. We murdered
after taking on Manson's beliefs and hatred toward
society, but it was nothing we wanted to do. We
could've said no, but our foolish hearts were
darkened. True, I had anger in my heart and released
it during the crimes. I had misplaced anger, but
enough to kill? -- not without many other factors,
none of which excuses my actions.
Manson had the motive. It was more than just
his crazy philosophy and a copycat murder. Manson
was angry at Doris Day's son, Terry Melcher, for
not giving him a recording contract. Terry was
an acquaintance who used to live at the house
where the murders took place. It's believed that
Manson was at the house looking for Terry the
night before the murders and was offended by the
new occupants. As a result, he sent us there to
kill them and to start Helter Skelter. I also
believe that Manson and another family member
went to the house afterward and disturbed the
crime scene.
Q: Do you think the crime would have happened
without you?
I hear you asking a lot of "what if"
questions. I believe if Manson hadn't asked me
to kill that night, he would've asked someone
else. Whether they would have gone through with
it or not, I don't know. I do think Manson would've
gotten someone to carry out his madness. The sad
part is that many were waiting in line to carry
out his orders, and there are those who still
worship him today.
Q: Do you think it takes a certain kind of
person to commit murder?
I do believe anyone is capable of killing, but
where we actually cross the line to cold-blooded
murder, I don't know. I know we are all born with
a corrupt nature that must be born-again in Christ.
Jeremiah the prophet says, "The heart is
deceitful above all things, and desper-ately wicked:
who can know it?" (17:9). We need a proper
upbringing, but at any time, a person can choose
to rebel against all he knows that is good. I
turned my back on my parents and their God and
society. I allowed my belief system to become
twisted, and when that occurs, anything can happen,
even murder. I do believe that deception is possible
for anyone; not necessarily Manson's, but a very
demonic one, designed for them.
Q: Can you summarize the underlying cause
of the crime?
To sum it up, this rebellious act evolved from
a corrupt value system, wrong beliefs and a lack
of personal identity and self-worth, combined
with Manson madness, meth violence and being driven
by demons. In the end, we're each accountable
for our own actions, and nothing and nobody else
is. I've learned clearly that our decisions can
have grave consequences.
Q: How do you feel today about the crime you
committed?
I feel horrible! If I'd just punched someone,
I could have apologized to them, or if I'd stolen
something, I could have returned it. But I took
a life, many of them -- lives I can't give back.
My victims are in their graves. It's final! I
can't share my feelings with them.
That's how I feel, helpless to do anything for
the victims, helpless about the whole situation.
This is why I turned to God. I knew He could do
something with my life, and He did. If He can
help me, He can help anyone! I believe that God
can use my life -- the evilness of my crime and
the fact that He rescued me -- to give hope to
others.
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