The Cult
Q: Charles, we've talked about Manson's philosophy,
but didn't you know that the Manson family was
a cult?
I thought it was a commune. What was a cult in
1969? I think we were all ignorant about cults
back then. I don't mean to plead ignorance, but
I was never taught about cults. Today, we need
to educate ourselves and our children. Everyone
should start by looking in the dictionary at the
definition of a cult. It speaks of the charismatic
leader, extremist views, a colony of people and
total devotion to each other.
We should watch out for these things, and always
compare them with mainstream Christianity where
our total devotion is to God, our Heavenly Father,
not man. It has been said, "If you want to
know the counterfeit, get to know the real thing."
Cashiers in banks are taught how real money feels,
not how counterfeit money feels. As we get to
know the feel of the real bill, it is easy to
spot the counterfeit when it comes along.
Q: What was life like with the Manson Family?
Life with the Manson family was lived on several
levels: life on the surface; that which you could
see, then, there was the level right under the
surface; how we lived behind the scenes, and lastly,
was what was going on spiritually; that which
none of us could see.
On the surface, we were living a "Magical
Mystery Tour," like the Beatles sang. We
even had a place called "Yellow Submarine."
We lived in an old, run-down cowboy movie ranch
living a different fancy every day. We shared
a huge pile of clothes and would change roles
constantly. At the same time, we put up a good
show running the ranch, renting horses and doing
other odd jobs to earn our keep. The hard-core
members were used to trap new members with sex
and by sharing Manson's philosophy.
Q: So what was it like under the surface?
Well, under the surface, what people couldn't
see was that we were living an isolated life in
shacks and living hungry, on food foraged from
dumpsters. Of course, there were the drugs we
all took together and the lack of sleep that made
us extremely open to suggestions, and the force
of a stronger personality. I will say that sex
in the Manson family has really been exaggerated
by the media.
Several nights a week, we'd take LSD and get
together in a big circle with Charlie playing
the guitar. It became a time used for brainwashing
us against our families and toward his philosophy.
This would become what some call a folie a deux
or folie a familial, which is a shared madness
between two or more intimately related people.
We slowly became one with each other, so much
so, that we could see ourselves in the faces of
one another.
Life on the deepest level was very demonic, and
we didn't even know it. Several members of the
family had experience in Satanism and Scientology.
The use of drugs opened up our very souls not
only to these philosophies, but to demonic forces.
There was something very evil slowly capturing
our souls.
Q: Were the members scared of him?
Charlie would simply look at members, and immediately
they would fall silent. But at the same time,
some were almost willing to die for him. Everyone
wanted to please Charlie and was fearful of his
opinion of them. Myself, I ran from him several
times in fear.
Q: How many members were there at any one
time?
There were about twenty-five at the most, but
I'd say there were sixteen who were the most committed.
What scares me more is how many there are today.
It's been reported that Manson gets stacks of
letters from those desiring to join his cult.
Many agree with his anti-establishment hatred,
almost making him into some sort of folk hero.
Q: How did you view society?
Well, superficially, I had taken on many of Manson's
views. In my mind, those views were constantly
being challenged. I was double-minded between
my past views and his. I felt I had failed to
make it in society. On looking back, it was partially
because of my own laziness, and no fault of society.
Q: What were Manson's views toward society?
He felt rejected by those in society. They were
the enemy; pigs, establishment and materialists
who worshipped houses, cars and money. (It seems
I worshipped those things, too.) They were mainly
composed of whites whom the blacks would rise
up against. Manson's thing was to manipulate not
only us, but also the blacks to carry out his
anger against society. Our minds were slowly poisoned
as we shared his madness.
Q: When did you realize your beliefs were
wrong?
I realized my beliefs were wrong when it was
too late. After the murders, my mind was racing,
not knowing if what Charlie was saying was true
or false. It didn't seem to be unfolding like
he said it would. We'd moved to the desert and
were unable to find the bottomless pit. I then
began to question Manson's beliefs.
Q: How did you break away from Manson's false
beliefs?
Well, there was an older man named Crockett,
who was deprogramming a couple of long-standing
family members in the desert. When Charlie met
him, Crockett stood up against him. Manson could
see that Crockett was a threat. I started to question
Manson's beliefs in my head, and besides, Helter
Skelter just wasn't coming down like Charlie had
said it would. Eventually, I would run from Manson
and the family in panic, not knowing what to believe,
realizing I had made a terrible mistake.
Q: But didn't you try to go back to the family
one last time?
Yes, I did! I fled to Texas to see my family,
ran to Mexico and Hawaii, but still couldn't find
a way to escape. So I decided to go back, walking
fifty miles across the desert looking for Charlie.
But at the last moment, I turned away, fearing
him, and returned to Texas.
Q: Did Manson ever teach the beliefs of Friedrich
Nietzsche and Adolf Hitler?
Strange as it may seem, I never heard Manson
mention Nietzsche or Hitler. Again I was away
from the family for three months when Charlie
laid out his take on Helter Skelter. I've heard
that magazines were found in a bus we left in
the desert, all having articles on Hitler and
even Rommel and his Desert Corps. I faintly remember
those magazines. Family members who were close
to Manson during the months I was gone, knew his
views on Hitler all too well. I did hear about
that.
I never heard Manson give credit to anyone for
his philosophy. I have wondered if Manson got
his dune buggy escape-to-the-desert idea from
Rommel, the German field Marshall of WWII. And
Manson must have gotten the idea of those swastikas
the family members carved on their foreheads during
their trial from Hitler. That really surprised
me as I watched from a distance in a Texas jail.
Q: Well, do you know about Manson's view concerning
Nietzsche and Hitler?
Supposedly, Manson studied Nietzsche, and like
Hitler, he believed in a master white race. Maybe
he thought the family would become the master
race after coming up from the bottomless pit.
Others have said Manson felt Hitler was a tuned-in
guy who had leveled the karma of the Jews. I don't
know. I never heard him say that.
I do remember in the book, Helter Skelter, Vincent
Bugliosi had a shocking parallel between Hitler
and Manson. He wrote that both men were influenced
by Nietsche, had similar statures and wounded
pasts, and were illegitimate children. Also, he
stated that they were racist, both having a hatred
for society, using slaves to commit their murders
for them. They used repetitive programming and
fear to their full advantage. With their charismatic
and hypnotic eyes, Hitler and Manson could easily
influence others. I find it hard to believe that
Manson was emulating Hitler without my knowing
it. If he was, I was just blind to it.
Q: How could you have been so blind?
I was less programmed with Manson's philosophy
because I was gone for those three months. When
I came back, I got caught up in the whirlwind,
blindly following the fervor of the others. Two
hard-core members, Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins,
uncovered Manson's philosophy more than anyone.
And at that time, they feared what was to come.
If I had heard this crazy Nietzsche/Hitler philosophy,
I think I would have taken off again myself.
I feel that Manson avoided sharing his beliefs
with me in fear that I wouldn't fall for them.
The Apostle Paul wrote, in II Corinthians 4:4,
"Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded
the minds of those who don't believe [in God]"…
(NLT). Of course, my own rebellion, disobedience
and ignorance were to blame. The drugs were a
stimulant making me gullible to believe what I
wouldn't normally believe. This took me into a
death spiral downward to greater rebellion, emotional
pain, drug consumption and worldly, fleshly pleasures.
In other words, my many fears blinded me through
a deadly and sinful principle. I was running from
God in unbelief, conscious of my sin. The more
I tried to do what was right in my own strength,
the more I missed the mark. I was deceived into
thinking that no one accepted me. I felt rejected,
and I believed the Manson family could satisfy
my emptiness. Instead, I was propelled into deeper
degradation and death.
Q: How about the beliefs of Scientology and
The Process Church?
I never heard Manson mention Scientology or The
Process Church. He did meet up with a Scientologist
named Crockett in the desert. Crockett was instrumental
in deprogramming Poston and Watkins, and stood
toe-to-toe with Manson. This was the only mention
of Scientology. I remember them arguing back and
forth for hours.
Manson was reportedly studying Scientology in
prison, and he could have been in contact with
The Process Church at that time. An ex-Scientologist
started the Process Church, and its members worship
both Satan and Christ. I find that interesting
because I felt Manson was both at times.
Q: Do you think Manson was influenced by these
cults?
Maybe Manson was influenced by these, maybe not,
who knows? There is a lot of evidence for it.
I know he was into mind control and good at programming
us with his beliefs. Some of those beliefs seem
to have been very close to those of The Process
Church, which is a satanic cult, preying on those
who are isolated, angry and hopeless.
They were called The Church of the Final Judgment.
Like Manson, they believed a chosen few would
be left after the final judgment, that motorcycle
gangs would help to bring it down and that Christ
and Satan would come together to judge the world.
They also shared a hatred for the blacks and used
fear for their benefit. The Process Church even
had a church symbol similar to the swastika and
believed in a bottomless void. Their view of God
made them a very dangerous cult.
Manson had similar teachings to all this, but
he acted like everything he taught was his own
personal revelation. So how all this fits together
as part of the Manson cult, God only knows, and
possibly Manson. One thing is sure, he never told
the truth, only lies.
Q: So it sounds like Manson took beliefs from
here and there to design his own philosophy. Is
that true?
That's right, he has been accused of borrowing
philosophies. There's nothing new under the sun.
Since the fall of man in Genesis Chapter 3, man
has always desired to be God, to have the best
answers for everything and to pridefully exalt
himself above the stars. We see this depicted
in Manson today. In short, he was deceived by
Satan, who is out to steal, kill and destroy everything
in his path. Manson's perverted knowledge and
the demonic force behind him made him a very powerful,
evil influence. He was much older and more aware;
all part of the reason we were so easily entrapped
by him.
Q: What similarities do you see between Manson's
beliefs and those of Jim Jones, David Koresh,
and Marshall Applewhite?
These charismatic leaders were lawmakers. Charlie's
word was law. His law condemned us, so we tried
that much harder to please him. He wrote the rules,
and so did Jones, Koresh and Applewhite. Charlie
even said to Geraldo Rivera, "I make the
laws. I'm the lawmaker." All these men were
lawmakers, and their laws ended in death. They
all changed God's truth of right and wrong.
Although their beliefs differed greatly, the
means to achieve a destructive result were the
same. They all believed a lie, and were able to
persuade and take their followers with them to
wherever the lie dictated, including murder and
suicide.
Their beliefs differed, but they had many similarities
as cult leaders. They were charismatic leaders
and thought they were the "chosen ones"
with a great revelation or the key to a higher
plane. They believed in a holy war with an end-of-the-age
teaching. Their philosophies were unreliable and
weird, even strange and bizarre. There was a oneness
of the followers, who so wanted the philosophy
to be true. There was group power and accountability.
It was expected that each member give up material
possessions, relationships and all earthly attachments.
Weaker and stronger members were paired up. There
was complete isolation, and an exchange of our
real families for the cult family.
Q: How can cult leaders, such as Manson and
Applewhite, convince people to blindly follow
them and commit murder or suicide?
Well, cults go after weak people. In my case,
I was lacking a strong identity, direction and
goals. I had no spiritual meaning, no sound belief
system or feeling of acceptance. I was also naïve
and gullible, a people-pleaser. I was empty, lonely
and angry, allowing myself to slowly be governed
by my own self-will and surroundings.
Manson was a charismatic leader who slowly charmed
us with lies and a warped, demonic philosophy.
He filled a need for each of us until there was
a deadly hold. The drugs made it easier for us
to be charmed and impressed with his mystical
power of sorcery. There was manipulation, mind
control, hypnotic messages and a loss of critical
thinking on our part, as our wills were given
over to Manson. He used his music to bring family
members closer to one another. This all resulted
in an extreme devotion and oneness of purpose.
Obedience became a badge of honor in the family.
Q: What's the difference between Manson's
beliefs and what you believe today?
It's like the difference between night and day,
darkness and light. As we've talked, I think you
can easily see Manson's distorted beliefs. Today,
my beliefs line up with mainstream Christianity.
I believe that God, the Creator of the world,
loved us so much that He sent Jesus Christ, His
Son, to die on the cross to pay for the sins of
all mankind; and that believing this, we will
have eternal life. That's the simplicity of the
Gospel of Jesus Christ, which I believe in and
trust in for my salvation. My life is governed
by a Godly vision and God's promises, regardless
of the circumstances. God is in control of my
life, not Manson. Manson's deception is a thing
of the past.
Q: Why do others remain ardent followers of
Manson today?
For many of the reasons we just talked about.
Those who follow Manson today are individuals
with a false or weak spiritual identity. These
people need love and direction. They are looking
for something to identify with and believe, and
they find acceptance with the Mansonites. Many
are very insecure, angry people, blaming others
for their own wrong choices. It's sad that they
are blinded to the true joys of family and church
relationships. We need to reach out in love rather
than judge them.
I'm deeply concerned about the Marilyn Manson
following that has helped make Charles Manson
a hero in the eyes of some children. They attach
themselves to the Manson spirit through Marilyn
Manson's satanic rock band, who took his name
from Charles Manson. I pray they wake up before
the results become deadly. These children seem
to be worshipping sex, drugs and death. We hope
to reach some of them before it is too late!
Q: What would you say to or ask Manson today?
I believe he has read my book. If so, that says
a lot to him. I don't think that he hears much
because of his pride, but I'd let him know that
I'm praying he one day will hear the truth, and
humble himself to the cross of Jesus Christ.
I think I'd ask him the same questions you're
asking, such as whether or not he got his philosophy
from The Process Church, and where the Nietzche/Hitler
philosophy fits in. I think I could come up with
a lot of questions to help put the puzzle together,
but I don't think I could believe his answers.
I don't think he would be truthful.
Q: Are you in touch with other former Manson
family members?
No, I'm not. I do hear things about them through
the media and through the grapevine, but I have
no direct contact with them. Bugliosi did a great
job following-up on former members in his updated
version of Helter Skelter. I hear that many have
become Christians and truly love the Lord. Some
have died in accidents and some from natural causes.
Others are in hiding, trying to go on with ordinary
lives. Only a couple of the girls still follow
Manson. I pray their eyes open up to the truth
that is found only in Jesus Christ.
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